obama takes no interest in this. rick, when was the last time you even heard president obama talk about growth? >> let me actually switch -- let me switch to mark now. mark, what do you think of the obama tax plan? >> well, look, i don't know if obama has really a tax plan, but i don't think the problem is taxes here. i think the problem is people don't have an income. the reason they don't have an income, they don't have jobs. we have a demand problem in the economy, not a tax problem. cutting taxes, if you have no income, does not make any difference. we need to stimulate demand. how can we stimulate demand? we can do it in a variety of ways, but cutting taxes is not going to get us where we want to go. >> victoria, the message of mitt romney, and a lot of people, is if you overhaul this complex tax code and get the incentives back in, that will help small businesses, particularly go out, build their businesses, and hire more people. >> i think that's absolutely true. business owners, small and large, are holding b